Hello, stepparents and welcome. I am delighted to have you join me today because I had the special privilege of interviewing the fabulous Dr. Patricia Papernow, who is the world’s leading expert in step parenting and blended family dynamics. Today’s episode will be just part 1 of my interview with her. I’m so excited to have you join me. Without further ado, here we go …
MARIA NATAPOV:
Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us. We are here with the fantastic Dr. Patricia paper now. Welcome. We’re so excited to have you. Dr. Paper now is an internationally recognized expert on stuffy Emily’s she integrates a deep understanding of the research with four decades of clinical practice and a wide variety of clinical modalities including psycho educational, systemic and trauma informed the recipient of the award for distinguished contribution to family psychology from the APA couple and family division. Dr. Papernow is the author of one of the classic books in the field Surviving and Thriving in Step Family Relationships: What Works and What Doesn’t.
And with Karen Bonnell, The Stepfamily Handbook: From Dating, to Getting Serious, to Forming a Blended Family as well as dozens of articles and book chapters. Dr. Papernow is a psychologist in private practice in Hudson, MA and director of the Institute for Stepfamily Education. We are so excited to speak with you! Clearly, without a doubt you are an expert in this field. And it’s such a pleasure to get to pick your brain and have you share your wisdom with us. I’d love to delve into some of the primary core challenging aspects to name and also to consider handling during the journey towards blending the family and the various members coming together. I would love for you to speak more to the piece about how to navigate that successfully for families particularly around the not physically present other parent. And specifically with regard to the children. If you could speak a little bit to the critical things to absolutely not do.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
Well, the first thing is that usually adult couples have to slow it down. And that’s hard to do when you’re in love. It’s hard to do. So The Stepfamily Handbook, which is the latest book, that subtitle is From Dating to Getting Serious to Becoming a Blended Family does a really good job of laying it out step by step by step. And if you can keep it more step by step, it really helps. And if you can avoid all of a sudden announcing that this new person in your lives kids and she or he is moving in and we’re getting married.
It’s too much for kids. Kids need to meet the person, they may need to have the person come over and then go home, they may need to meet the person in a place like a community picnic where it’s not so intense, and they can come and go. And kids need their parents to stay connected to the kids. And a new partner is present. Now that’s hard for the new partner if she or he doesn’t have kids. But kids are gonna have a much easier time if they feel like their parent remains connected to them.
And the other thing that I say to couples keep that physical expression low. Enjoy each other behind closed doors. I mean, it’s one of the gifts of good relations. For kids … what adults often say is “I want them to see a positive loving relationship.” Well, that’s lovely for you. But it doesn’t actually land that way for kids. That intensifies losses. It often intensifies their loyalty bonds, and it’s too much change.
So keep the physicality low in front of kids. Take time, a step at a time. And if you have an ex-spouse who is having a really hard time, some of the kids are probably going to be in a deep loyalty bind. An ex-spouse who’s bad mouthing, who’s saying to the kid “this is a terrible thing” either outwardly or is falling apart in some way. That child that child whose other parent is upset is going to be in a deeper loyalty bind and that child may need more time than a child whose other parent is fairly supportive.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Yeah. What kind of advice could you give or concrete steps that are critical for families to do in that situation? Certainly, it’s always best to keep the adult stuff separate. And things around children separate, considering this is really challenging for them and very confusing, and they’re still oftentimes are young enough that they don’t have the advanced skills that we might have from all of our experience to be able to deal with these kinds of situations.
Because up until then, their only frame of reference for what a family is was their core family. So certainly, that can be extremely painful and challenging for them. But I’m curious, what can the other parent do to help mitigate that and to help them in the process of understanding that it’s not so much a loss of the other parent?
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
You mean, a loss of the ex-spouse or a loss of me as your parent when I’m re-coupling? Which loss are you talking about?
MARIA NATAPOV:
I’m hoping that the other parent would be able to help the child recognize that, yes, things have changed. But they’re not losing the other parent that isn’t physically there.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
But the first thing is actually rather than talk kids out of where they are, by trying to get where they are. It can be a lot of feelings when a Mom or Dad finds a new partner. And sometimes that let’s say it’s a dad who re-couples, some that’s hard for moms when dads re-couple. And, she’ll be okay. If you know, mom is bad mouthing, and you’re dad or stepmom, you can say to kid “I know it’s hard for mom, I know, she says some bad things sometimes. That must put you in a bind.” To help the kid rather than pull the other way. “She says I’m bad.” The child holds where she or he is. That’s called a loyalty bind. When one parent gets upset with the other parent, that’s hard for kids. “It’s hard for you.”
MARIA NATAPOV:
So what I’m hearing you say is really helping them to name exactly what’s going on, and really having the empathy and compassion and language and just sort of holding space for them to really feel their feelings. And I’ve also heard from what you were describing a few moments ago, that really the key is to tune-in. Where’s the child at?
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
And you can make guesses. Just check ’em out. “You know what happens for a lot of kids, a lot of kids, when mom or dad finds a new partner, they feel kind of left alone, lonely, you know, is that right for you?” Or “A lot kids if one parent finds a new partner, the other parent gets upset. And then they feel it’s called a loyalty bind – they feel kind of torn? Is that right?” Give kids a chance to say.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Yeah, just inviting lots of conversation for them to be able to express.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
And “What’s the hardest thing about that? What’s the easiest? What are mom and dad doing that makes it harder? What can mom do that makes it easier? Which do you want us to do more of or less of? Give kids a voice. And if kids don’t have answers, give them multiple choices. And they have to think up the multiple choice. Would it be better if we talked more about this? If we talked less about this? If we talked about the same? There’s better ones than that.
MARIA NATAPOV:
I love that approach. I often encourage that with clients also. And it invites and models for the child how they can start to think about this and what they can share even if the concrete details can be challenging, or they don’t quite have the language for it or even haven’t fully identified it for themselves. That’s fantastic.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
I do need to say something about parenting, because it’s so important. You asked about what are the some of the … I call them easy wrong turns, big booboos. The biggest thing is the stepparent expects to step in and share the parenting and shared discipline. And it’s one of the mistakes that family therapists who don’t know about stepfamilies make they say, a united front and the parent backs up the stepparent.
Well, here’s the research. Research is parents need to retain the disciplinary role. Stepparents need to I call it “focus on connection, not correction”. Focus on relationship building, not rules. Your job, until or unless children have a trusting caring relationship with the stepparent, parent needs to remain the disciplinarian. And if children are eight and under, oftentimes stepparents can move very slowly into being more of the limit-setters. Kids who are older often are never really ready for the stepparent to step in. Perfectly healthy stepfamilies, the parent remains the disciplinarian. Steps have input.
And I can tell you that stepparents all over the world want more limits and boundaries with their stepchildren and parents all over the world, want more love and understanding for their kids. I have not met a step couple that doesn’t have this division. And I want all step couples to know this is normal. It’s not that one of you is doing it wrong. It does turn out that what we know is the best parenting for children is called authoritative. This parenting is both loving, it’s responsive, and it sets moderately firm limits that are appropriate and follows through.
That’s different than authoritarian, which is hard and firm and “I don’t care how you feel do it.” And that’s different from permissive, “Oh, honey, whatever you want.” It turns out that the easiest pull for stepparents is authoritarian parenting because stepkids can be irritating. They’re not paying any attention to you. They’re doing things that you know, like, leaving cocoa spread all over the kitchen, which you know, when I was a single parent, if my kid was going to make herself cocoa, fine with me, if she left a mess. Because she did it herself. For my new partner that could be very, very irritating. So stepparents easily get pulled into authoritarian parenting of stepkids – that turns out to be toxic.
Even in cultures like Japanese culture that accepts and values authoritarian parenting, it is toxic to stepparent and stepchild relationships. Parent has to remain the disciplinarian. Often the stepparent can help the parent firm up. But parents are very sensitive. So here come the skills again. You’re going to need a soft startup, stepparent. If you say “You are being a wimp and your kid is a lazy something or other because he never cleans up,” I guarantee you you’re gonna have a fight. You can say, “Gee, I know your kids are not used to cleaning up. I’d love it if … I think your kid could start cleaning up after herself. And she makes coco. What do you think?”
MARIA NATAPOV:
Yeah, absolutely. I find that the conversations and with my clients as well that happen, you know, adults are adults, and they can have those conversations calmly and politely and kindly and empathitically. Theoretically. But you know, but like you said, away from the children without one getting pulled into that role and just sort of start to explore what are some possibilities, what may be beneficial to start shifting and how to do it and really share your ideas, but get curious about the other person’s ideas. And you can arrive collaboratively at what makes the most sense for the situation.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
And if you can do that, and it does help to know that almost always are going to want firmer and parents are almost always going to want softer. And that good parenting is actually a combination of both. It does help to know that that’s normal, because you may not actually agree.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Right. Absolutely. Yes!
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
And the first goal may not be to come to agreement, but to influence each other a little bit.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Exactly. Right. It’s it’s starting the conversation. And I think what you’re alluding to is what I call it, “plant the seed.” You’re moving the needle forward at little bit at a time, because at least you’re bringing up the possibility of something else.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
That’s a great idea. I haven’t thought about that. I’m gonna borrow that.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, please. But that’s what I find has happened a lot in my personal experience in both ways. And it’s pretty interesting. And I think to as people, sometimes we just need to with new ideas kind of sit with it for a little bit before we can even embrace it.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
Well-put. Change takes time. It’s a process, not an event.
MARIA NATAPOV:
And then it sort of creates that environment that you were alluding to, about the curiosity and the starting to notice, right, and then suddenly you’re noticing other things about the kids and what they’re doing. And because they’re developing in such a rapid age, a lot of the time that in various ways too. So it offers that opportunity to tune-in to those things as well. And giving them credit. Sometimes it’s easy to say, “oh, you know, you’re not ready for that.” Or “You’re just you’re only so such in such an age.” But really it’s not a linear process always and development isn’t exactly on target like that. It happens when it happens.
DR. PATRICIA PAPERNOW:
It goes in cycles.
MARIA NATAPOV:
Yeah, absolutely.
Want more? Listen to Part 1 and Part 3 of this interview for more of Dr. Papernow’s tips and insights!
Related Episodes:
Interview with Dr. Patricia Papernow: Part 1
Interview with Dr. Patricia Papernow: Part 3
Your Stepchild’s Loyalty Conflict – Part 2: Behavior
Links for this show:
Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships: What Works and What Doesn’t
The Stepfamily Handbook: From Dating, to Getting Serious, to Forming a “Blended Family”
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